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Discussione: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai francesi

  1. #41
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Faccio presente che questo topic dovrebbe trattare l'argomento come da titolo, quindi chiedo ai convenuti di restare dentro l'argomento, in quanto in alcune occasioni si è andati OT.
    Quindi vi chiedo di tener conto di quanto ho detto, non vorrei essere obbligato a chiudere il topic
    .
    luciano

  2. #42
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Ok Luciano
    Possiamo aprire un altro topic per questa discussione.
    Ciao
    ALEX
    http://hongrie2gm.creer-forums-gratuit.fr/
    Eravamo 3O d'una sorte, 31 con la morte. G. d'Annunzio

  3. #43
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Ciao Alex ti faccio presente che i topic sulle stragi e bada bene sotto qualunque bandiera, hanno sempre portato a discussioni alquanto spiacevoli e quindi ad una inevitabile chiusura del topic, detto questo desidero che in questa stanza diatribe non ne avvengano.
    Spero avrai compreso quanto ho inteso dire.
    luciano

  4. #44
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Non c'è problema, era soltanto per iniziare una discussione senza diatribe.
    ALEX
    http://hongrie2gm.creer-forums-gratuit.fr/
    Eravamo 3O d'una sorte, 31 con la morte. G. d'Annunzio

  5. #45
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Citazione Originariamente Scritto da Rheinmetall
    Certamente anche gli americani non erano molto "teneri" con i prigionieri di guerra vedi gli episodi della campagna di Sicilia ed il discusso ordine del giorno di Patton su chi considerare prigioniero e relativo " trattamento".
    Lo stesso avvenne in Normandia e durante tutta la campagna d'Europa; la macchina della propaganda e l'episodio per molti versi ancora oscuro di Molmedy gettarono indubbiamente benzina sul fuoco ed anch'io ho letto di ordini di non prendere prigionieri tedeschi e di applicare rappresaglie, il libro
    "Cittadini in uniforme "di Ambrose è costellato di diverse testimonianze in merito.
    Permettetemi di copiare questo stralcio di memoria. à? scritto in lingua inglese ma fa riflettere molto sulla condotta degli alleati. Specialmente degli americani.


    Here is an extract from an earlier book of mine, Signal Officers of the Waffen-SS". The report below is a translation of the report that Untersturmführer Willie Köhler from the Totenkopf Nachrichten Abteilung gave me for use in the book.


    "Following the German capitulation on May 7th the 3.SS-Panzer Division rushed to cross the Enns River demarcation line before midnight on May 8th in order to avoid surrendering to the Russians. Although most of the division succeeded in surrendering to the Americans before the deadline, they were forced at gun point back across the Russian lines on May 12th. From there they were transported to labor camps deep inside Russia where they subsisted on starvation rations. The last prisoners were not returned to Germany until 1955. Of the estimated 10,000 members of the Totenkopf Division who went into Russian captivity fewer than 2,000 survived. After the war the former Untersturmführer Willi Köhler, who had been a platoon leader in the Nachrichten Abteilung provided the following recollection, "Late April 1945. We were near Königswiesen. A report trickled down to us that we should break through to Bad Ischl on our own initiative or else disengage. That was out of the question. Our Aufklärungs Abteilung had once again halted the American advance. A higher officer ordered us all to assemble at the edge of the woods. An American bomber flew over. With heartrending words he thanked us for our loyalty. With the words, "Germany will not be allowed to perish", he put his hands in front of his face and people saw that he could no longer control himself. He wept. I believe each of us young lads also had tears in our eyes.

    From all sides we threw radio equipment and other important supplies in a large bomb crater which we soaked with gasoline and detonated with hand grenades and anti-tank rockets. Up to this time I had led a reinforced company with many young Hungarian volunteers. This company was a self-contained heavy signal troop. These men had displayed unbelievable bravery during our previous battles. I had pinned the Iron Cross on each of them. The report of Adolf Hitler's death gave us soldiers the certainty of what we did not want to hear or believe: the total defeat of the fatherland. Despite the previous destruction of most of our equipment we were still fully armed. I blew up my half-track and we set out on foot towards Pregarten. As a point of honor, our division commander, Brigadeführer Hellmuth Becker, remained with us to the bitter end. Such men were an example to us and I would have put a bullet in my head before I would have abandoned the men that I was responsible for. I stayed with them. We were glad to still be alive and wanted to only go into American captivity. - That was a fallacy. - We were in a small meadow near Pregarten and waited for the return of our division commander who had gone to discuss surrender terms with the Russians. Early in the evening our 01, Hauptsturmführer Paul Steinecke, returned as a courier through the Russian lines and reported that the Russians were keeping Brigadeführer Becker as a prisoner. The Ia then delivered his last order, "Save yourselves whoever can and fight your way through to the Americans." We marched the entire night and crossed the American lines at dawn. We disarmed ourselves and put our weapons in a large pile. We were stopped by American tanks in Gallneukirchen and crowded together in a meadow. Besides the Totenkopf Division, there were also paratroop units, the Großdeutschland Division and parts of other military units assembled in the meadow. We remained in the meadow surrounded by tanks for three days without food or water. For the first time I understood that water was as important as food. On the third day civilians attempted to bring us pails of water. It was a hot day in May and we were all almost mad with thirst. The civilians, who were all wives and mothers, thought of us as their own husbands and sons and collected together on the outskirts of the meadow. American officers ordered their men to empty the water out of the buckets onto the ground. The prisoners felt that they were being provoked and the Americans must have certainly recognized that something would come of this. A vehicle with a loudspeaker drove up and announced in German that we should maintain our discipline. We should not remove our medals and awards or our rank insignia because on the next day we would march about 10 kilometers to a discharge point. We believed this because the words came from an American officer. The thirst tormented us so much that we were almost without any willpower. However, that was not what the Americans were going to do.

    What took place on the next morning was unbelievable: We were ordered to assemble in march groups of 500 men. In front and behind each group was a tank. These Americans were not soldiers, but wild animals, such as we had never seen throughout the entire war. Soon after we set out we heard wild shooting to our front and rear. An old grey-haired mother appeared in front of our march group who wanted to say goodbye to her son. He was an older Wehrmacht officer. I will never forget. While still in the embrace of her son she was shot and fell to the ground dead. We stumbled over her. Our soldiers wailed with pain or rage. Generally we all had the thought that we should try to escape. The shooting of defenseless prisoners
    must have given them pleasure. The Americans had betrayed us! They were marching us to the Russians. The march tempo was set by the tanks. Many stumbled and fell. A scream to the left or right after a shot from a pistol or sub-machinegun was fired at us. Those that could march no further were shot without mercy. Behind each march group were American soldiers running and shouting and savagely firing at these poor comrades. We were approaching insanity and words cannot properly describe our condition. One thing stood firm and I give my word as a combat soldier: Never at any time had German soldiers treated defenseless prisoners in such a dastardly and mean manner. We had expected this type of treatment from the Russians, whom we had been fleeing, but not from the Americans. I will never forget this criminal treatment of defenseless prisoners.

    Russian detachments were awaiting us with drawn pistols. For the first time each of us received water and a piece of bread at a collection point. Unforgetable: This bread tasted like a delicious pastry from a bakery. We were all thoroughly searched. Some had to strip naked. Everywhere the same shout, "Watch" watch, your watch and gold ring! Hitler dead, soon you too!" A Russian officer came up and said the same thing to me and punched me in the stomach. I no longer had a watch and that was probably why he hit me. Another officer was collecting our money from us in a box. He wore a golden Star of David in the same place as I had worn my Iron Cross 1st Class. He spoke perfect German. We were ordered to remove our boots. Russian soldiers mounted on horses drove us on with clubs and whips. One or another was struck in the small of the back with a rifle butt. Once again behind us were heard rifle and pistol shots. The screams cut through to our marrow. Those who could no longer keep up with the pace were shot down. We had to endure this infamy for days after we had lain down our weapons.

    We marched through valleys and villages. The lucky ones received some water from the bewildered villagers. Many times I had such luck. "Good luck!", said a mother to me, "Perhaps my son is with you." During the past nights the woman and her underage daughters had been raped by the Russians many times. A Russian came up to us and she could say no more. "Move, move, move!", we constantly heard. We were seized with disdain. We still hold those villagers in the highest regard. I remember well a particular village at the base of a valley. Here we found a well. The prisoners were encouraged to go over to the well to obtain water. Most of us were suspicious, but 20 or 30 men ran over to the well. Almost instantly they were shot down by the Russian guards. The poor comrades! We were driven on by rifle butts. "Move, move, move!" Like machines, we moved on. We were completely beaten down after so much abuse. The objective of this march was a large former POW camp for French officers. We finally had some peace here. We received food and water. Enough to keep on living.

    After a few weeks the Russians ordered us to form into groups. We were collected together and loaded on a freight train. We were packed like herrings in the wagons. The journey went on for days. We had to take care of our personal necessities in the wagons. We were living dead. I awoke one morning feeling somewhat damp. My pants were full of blood. During the night my neighbor had slit his wrist with a rusty nail. That was not the only such case. The journey went through Hungary and Romania to Konstanza. There we were closely guarded and hungry in a harbor area. One morning we were awakened by shouts from the guards and loaded on a ship. There we were loaded like animals almost on top of each other. I had the good fortune to stay above the deck. We were not allowed to move around, but the sea breeze saved us from the foul air with the penetrating stench of urine and excrement from below decks. I don't know where we landed two days later. We were again loaded on a train and transported to a former Russian prison camp. The place was called Kadada. For many comrades the place of their death from starvation.

    Five years under the hardest labor with bread and watery soup. For those who failed to meet their work norm, their daily bread ration was reduced from 600 to 400 grams. The winter was particularly harsh. Five years on food insufficient for life; too many died. I wanted to write a book about those five years. I became a stronger person during those years of imprisonment. It would certainly be an interesting adventure book. Unfortunately, I never wrote it. I survived those terrible times in those different camps. Too many of our dear comrades we had to bury in Russian earth. Their names we have forgotten, should we ever make a return trip to those places. The malnutrition impaired our memories. I was allowed to return to my homeland half-starved."

    Another good report can be found on page 350 of Vol 2 of "Wie ein Fels in Meer" by Karl Ullrich.

    Many men from the SS cavalry divisions spent 5 - 10 years in Soviet captivity. Good reports can be found in the various books by Hans-Otto Wachter. Contrary to popular belief, the Russians did not kill all of the SS wounded that they rounded up in Budapest. I personally knew the Obersturmführer Fritz Haberstroh from SS-Kavallerie Rgt. 17. His right leg had been amputated above the knee prior to his capure in February 1945. He was freed to return to Germany a year later because he was unfit for work.

    John Moore
    what doesn´t kill you, makes you stronger.

    viking280177@yahoo.de

    visitate il mio museo alla pagina FB: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/548572035176664/

  6. #46
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Non conoscendo la lingua inglese non saprei come replicare

  7. #47
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Conoscendo l inglese non conoscendo il traduttore automatico di google l ho postata così. Se sai usare il traduttore in questione potrai replicare. Mi scuso comunque con chi nn conosce la lingua.
    what doesn´t kill you, makes you stronger.

    viking280177@yahoo.de

    visitate il mio museo alla pagina FB: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/548572035176664/

  8. #48
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    E' un estratto dalla raccolta CD Führerliste der Waffen-SS?

  9. #49
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    Ho semplicemente digitato su google: "wo genau sind die ss divisionen kapituliert?/dove sono capitolate esattamente le divisioni ss"ed ecco il risultato....
    what doesn´t kill you, makes you stronger.

    viking280177@yahoo.de

    visitate il mio museo alla pagina FB: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/548572035176664/

  10. #50
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    Re: 8 maggio 1945 : 12 soldati francesi fucillati dai france

    E' un estratto di un libro di John P.Moore, credo esista solo la sua versione in CD ormai. Molto interessante!

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