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Discussione: Rievocazione sovietica WWII

  1. #91
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    "La sù per le montagne!!!..."
    No, spiacente, non mi ci vedo con la lunga penna nera sul cappello, al massimo con quella da Kaiserschutzen ma quella è roba dell'altra guerra...[]

    Saluti
    Die Nadel
    Komm mein Schatz, denn wir fahren nach Croce D’Aune

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  2. #92
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    Visto che al momento non so cosa fare giro la palla e chiedo a voi cosa vorreste approfondire?

  3. #93
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    divise speciali??? divise e tute per i carristi??? tenute di lancio dei russische fallschirmjager???

    Saluti
    Die Nadel
    Komm mein Schatz, denn wir fahren nach Croce D’Aune

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  4. #94
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    Citazione Originariamente Scritto da Die Nadel

    divise speciali??? divise e tute per i carristi??? tenute di lancio dei russische fallschirmjager???

    Saluti
    Die Nadel
    Ho qualche difficolta' ad orientarmi sul noto sito con le medaglie che la mia cecchina preferita potrebbe lecitamente essersi guadagnata......
    Anche della rievocazione vera e propria,pero' .....esperienza diretta.
    Ciao.
    Val
    VALCHIRIA76
    ad excelsa tendo
    ne' con speranza ne' con paura

  5. #95
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    In colpevole ritardo andiamo avanti.
    Oggi come richiesto il Buon Fritz vediamo i paracadutisti.


    Immagine:

    29,38*KB

    uesto è un paracadutista in uniforme da volo nella prima parte della guerra.
    L'uniforme è in realtà* una tuta che va portata sopra l'uniforme normale a cui si aggiunge un caschetto in tela e cuoio.
    Le forze avio trasportate sovietiche o VDV Vozdushno-Desantnye Vojska
    vennero create a metà* degli anni trenta quando nel paese si diffuse la mania del paracadutsimo, che fu tale che nei grandi parchi pubblici come ad esempio il Gorkij di mosca vennero costruite torri di lancio, è stato calcolato che allo scoppio della guerra vi fossero circa 8.000.000 di paracadutisti addestrati in Unione Sovietica.
    L'uniforme si completa di un pugnale, a volte veniva dato in dotazione l'elmetto ma non è una costante.
    le mostrine sono quelle dell'aviazione di colore celeste.


    Immagine:

    32,87*KB

    nella seconda metà* della guerra viene adottata una tuta mimetica ma di fatto è l'unico effettivo cambiamento.
    Le forze paracadutiste verranno impiegate per la maggior parte come fanteria, arrivando a costituire 10 corpi d'armata e diverse brigate autonome.
    Furono tuttavia utilizzate varie volte nel loro ruolo, sopratutto in due grandi operazioni nella zona di Vyazma nel febbraio marzo 42 e nell'operazione Dnepr/Kiev del settembre 1943, più una lunga serie di operazioni più limitate lungo l'intero arco del fronte.

  6. #96
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    Ivan, puoi confermare quello che ho letto da qualche parte che si sono stati lanci operativi di paracadutisti sovietici... senza paracadute? Sono certo di aver letto che in più di un'occasione furono effettuati lanci di reparti (in appoggio ai partigiani?) dagli Li-2 direttemente sulla neve, a bassa quota, senza paracadute in quanto la neve avrebbe comunque attutito l'urto...

  7. #97
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    ho trovato una pagina estremamente interessante che analizza in profondità* la questione, la riporto qui in inglese, se qualcuno ha bisogno di una traduzione, posso cercare di spiegare i passi salienti... peraltro non mi sembra che dia in milioni le cifre dei pracadutisti militari, ma più realistiche decine di migliaia...

    The Soviet Union formed the first parachute units in the early 1930s. As with many aspects of modern military technology, the Soviets took the lead and the rest of the world followed. But the Soviets lacked the ability to make airborne forces work effectively, something Germany and the Western Allies were only marginally better at. Moreover, although in the 1930s new military technologies (tanks, aircraft carriers, dive-bombers) abounded, no one knew who would, or could, make what work.
    By 1932, after several years of planning, the Soviets had a thousand paratroopers and were enthusiastically working out the technical details of airborne operations. After that, the strength of Russian paratroop forces took off.
    By 1934 the Soviets had standardized their paratrooper organization. The basic unit was a brigade, which contained 3,000 to 3,500 men (four 450- to 550-man infantry battalions, a recon company, artillery battalion; and support units). The Soviets pioneered the use of gliders, and the airborne brigades had combinations of parachute and glider battalions (usually two of each). Gliders allowed the landing of light tanks and artillery. Such a "two and two" brigade would have eleven light tanks, seventeen pieces of artillery (four 75mm guns, the rest being combinations of mortars and antiaircraft and antitank guns). The brigade would have sixty to seventy trucks.
    While Russian paratroopers had trained hard and performed well in manoeuvres, they had yet to enter combat as paratroopers. In 1939, one brigade fought (as ground troops) against the Japanese in Mongolia. In 1940, two brigades fought (again, as ground troops) against the Finns.

    Year Number of Paratroopers

    1932 1,000

    1933 8,000

    1934 10,000

    1935 10,000

    1936 10,000

    1937 12,000

    1938 18,000

    1939 30,000

    1940 50,000

    1941 55,000


    The closest the paratroopers came to an airborne combat operation was in 1940, when three brigades were dropped ahead of ground troops during the Russian reoccupation of the Romanian province of Bessarabia. There was no opposition during this operation, so it was basically another training exercise.
    In late 1940, airborne divisions (called "corps") were formed, each with three brigades (3,000 men) plus support units (a light tank battalion, artillery battalion, and antitank-battalion). A full-strength airborne corps had 10,500 men. Five existed (although they lacked much equipment) when the Germans invaded Russia in 1941. Since the Germans had quickly attained air superiority, and the situation on the ground was desperate, the five airborne corps were sent into battle as regular infantry. This, in effect, destroyed the airborne force the Russians had so carefully built up over the previous nine years.
    After two months of fighting the Germans, only two of the original five Russian airborne corps were still intact. Cadres from these two corps, plus survivors from the three that had all but disappeared, were used to form five more airborne corps. Many of these units subsequently participated in the 1941-1942 Russian winter offensive as ground troops. There were some air drops, but they were small and none had much effect on the ground fighting. Casualties, however, were heavy. During the summer of 1941, the ten airborne corps, and five independent brigades, were reorganized into regular infantry units and sent south to oppose the big German offensive that was approaching the Caucasus Mountains. That campaign resulted in the German defeat at Stalingrad. But even as Russian forces were massing for that battle, many paratroopers were pulled out of their infantry jobs at the end of 1942 and used to organize ten Guards Airborne Divisions (basically the same as the previous Airborne Corps). But the Germans began attacking again in the spring of 1943, and the paratroopers were once more sent in as ground troops, and most of them were lost. Undismayed, the Russians formed another twenty airborne brigades, which they used to form another six airborne corps. Three of these brigades were used for the largest Russian airborne operation to date, and the first deliberate attempt to use parachutists to support a major operation. On September 23, 1943, the three brigades were dropped in the vicinity of Kanev to assist the crossing of the Dnieper River. The airborne assault was a failure. It was too hastily organized and the careful preparation required was simply not there. Moreover, most of the parachutists had never jumped out of an airplane before, although most had at least jumped in a parachute harness from a training tower. There were not enough transport aircraft, the pilots didn`t have much experience, and the German flak was alert and effective. The drop was done at night, to avoid the risk of German fighters, but this just added to the muddle.
    Stalin was not happy with this, the first real test of Russian airborne forces in their designed role. But then, their failure was not surprising. After the debacles in 1941, the Russians ruthlessly gathered whatever forces they could to stem the German advance. This meant paratroopers being thrown into ground battles as infantry. The persistent efforts to organize new airborne units represented a desire to maintain an airborne capability as well as the recognition that the paratroopers were more effective infantry. But the Soviet air force was never able to support airborne operations sufficiently to make them work. For the rest of the war, Soviet airborne forces were kept on the back burner. It wasn`t until after the war that the parachute divisions again became well trained and equipped forces.
    Ironically, a year after the Kanev operation, the Western Allies had their own airborne failure at Arnhem. Paratroopers were dropped on the flat terrain in the Netherlands, and the Germans responded aggressively. This was yet another airborne failure, and with three divisions and a brigade the largest airborne operation of the war. Learning from their mistakes, the next major Allied airborne operation occurred in March 1945, when an American and a British airborne division dropped in support for the crossing of the Rhine (at Wesel) by Montgomery`s army group. This took place in daylight, with total air supremacy, and within range of 3,000 pieces of artillery. This was the last large paratrooper drop into combat in history. Smaller operations have been carried out, with mixed success. And by the way, the tale that Russian paratroopers jumped without chutes in the winter (to land in the snow) is based on the rare practice of having espionage agents jump from very low-flying and slow aircraft (to land in the snow). It`s amazing how these tall tales change as they get passed around. Jumping without a chute is never practical.

    Soviet Airborne Chronology

    1933, 18 August: Soviet demonstration, Moscow; 46 paratroops jumped from two large bombers, and also dropped a small combat tank by parachute.

    1935, 1 March: During Soviet airborne maneuvers at Kiev, two battalions of infantry were dropped; three 18-passenger gliders were also landed on these maneuvers. Gliders had been towed 1,170 milesâ??in triple-tow. All pilots involved were women.

    1936, September-October: Soviet mass drop of 1,200 paratroops at Minsk, while 5,200 paratroops jumped in maneuvers at Moscow.

    1940, 29-30 June: In the first combat use of Soviet airborne forces in an air assault, two airborne brigades parachuted from TB-3 bombers into Rumanian Bessarabia and captured the cities of Bolgrad, Kagul, and Izmail.

    1941, July-October: Soviet parachute raids on a small scale near Kiev, in the area near the Black Sea, and on the northwestern edge of the Caucasus.

    1942, 3 January-6 March: Airborne troops of the Soviet IV Airborne Corps, totaling approximately 14,000 men, were dropped or airlanded into the rear area of the German forces attacking Moscow in the vicinity of Vyaz`ma, 130 SW of Moscow. The operations included six major drops that were often spread out over several days due mainly to shortages in troop carrier aircraft (including PS-84s, TB-3s, and probably even some Soviet-built C-47s). Initial objectives generally required troopers to secureâ??and in one instance, establishâ??an airfield for airlanding additional forces. The troopers of IV Airborne Corps were to link up with attacking Soviet ground forces and, along with partisans in the vicinity, cut German supply lines and strike a counterblow; in the drop of 6 March, parachutists jumped even farther west and directly attacked the supply base at Elnya. The overall effort suffered from poor coordination between units, bad weather, shortages, ineffective resupply, pilots who were poorly trained in night navigation and formation flying, and scattered drops; however, the effort threw off the German timetable in Hitler`s quest for Moscow. Troopers were isolated and eventually defeated in a battle during which some units fought in the line for four months, making this the longest-running airborne operation in history. Approximately 4,000 men survived.

    1943, 24-25 September: Last Soviet operational-level airborne assault of the war. After the successful strategic defensive operation at Kursk in July 1943, the Soviet military quickly launched two counterattacks on German forces, which began a retreat westward toward the Dnepr River. In an effort to expedite Soviet crossings and develop bridgeheads, approximately 10,000 paratroops were to be brought in from the 1st, 3d, and 5th Guards Airborne Brigades (many troopers of which were veterans of the assault missions near Vyaz`ma in early 1942). Aircraft used included 50 PS-84s and 150 IL-4s (B-25s supplied by the U.S.), plus a handful of gliders and nearly three dozen sailplane-type gliders. Parachutists were to drop at night in the area near the pocket on the west side of the bend in the Dnepr River just below Pereyaslav, where partisans had maintained strongpoints. Jumpers, who included a number of nurses trained as parachutists, were delayed a day because of weather. Units encountered problems with aircraft unsuited for parachute delivery and in preparations and aircraft fueling. Finally, rather than attempting to form up, aircraft simply departed as they were ready, shuttling in troopers in widely dispersed columns. The 5th Brigade dropped in easy range of the German 19th Panzer Division that was moving east on the road through Dudari toward the river to provide assistance to German forces trapped there. Most parachutists were slaughtered in the air or as they reached the ground. Similar losses for related reasons occurred with 3d Brigade. The 1st Brigade landed in better position and went into action with infantry units, as planned. However, during October and November the forces in this area at the bend of the Dnepr River were driven out or eliminated. Ironically, the Germans poured in so many reserves to this contested area south of Pereyaslav that Soviet forces probably crossed the Dnepr more readily at points north and south than they would have otherwise. Losses were so heavy and results so meager, however, that the Soviet military confined its elite airborne units to infantry fighting for the balance of the war. Most of the difficulties in this operation arose from a combination of factors including expediency in planning, poor coordination, the use of transport aircrews rather than troop carrier aircrews, no joint training between airborne and air crews, ineffective intelligence, and improper equipment.

    #

    I have seen reports saying the Soviets experimented with troops handing onto the wings as a way of getting more troops on the DZ per sortie, but they bagged the idea because, although it technically it actually worked, the soldiers were worth nothing when they landed. Something about sitting in a slipstream for 30 - 90 minutes - even Russians couldn`t tough that out

    Leroy Thompson`s "Unfulfilled Promise: The Soviet Airborne Forces 1928-1945#8243; (Merriam Press, Bennington, VT, 2002) says, on pages 34-35:

    "Later in 1939 on 30 November, Soviet paratroopers had the distinction of making the first combat jump in history when they dropped at Petsamo and other points behind the Finnish lines during the Soviet invasion of Finland. Due to poor navigation on the part of pilots and quick action on the part of Finnish snipers who picked off many as they landed, few of these paratroopers actually made it into combat. Those who did fought with courage, and many had even jumped without parachutes into deep snow drifts."

    For yet another exotic method of airborne deployment, consider the following, again from Thompson`s book, pages 10-11:

    "Although in general the Soviet paratrooper jumped with his equipment attached to his person, some provision was made for equipment containers. In the older TB-3, equipment containers were slung under either the fuselage or wings and dropped by parachute. Alternatively, a rather odd trolley system was used in which a group of padded containers was lashed to a wheeled trolley slung beneath the fuselage. Then, making use of the TB-3s incredibly low stalling speed, the pilot would fly just above the ground and release the trolley, which, theoretically, would roll along the ground until it stopped. At this point the previously dropped parachutists would rush to the trolley and unpack their mortars, DP-28 machine guns, or antitank rifles. An even stranger use of this trolley system was to deliver troops who rode in the same padded containers as the equipment. When the trolley stopped, out they would pop like so many Ivans-in-the-boxes. Obviously, the trolley system was dependent on very flat terrain and little use was made of it for delivering supplies during the war. According to German reports, however, the Soviets did drop troops in containers on at least one occasion. Unfortunately, the Germans were in control of the drop zone, and the Red soldiers were slaughtered as they emerged from their capsules."

    Unfortunately, Thompson does not cite any source for these "German reports"

    Still, I have done a bit of Internet digging myself, and I must now admit Soviet accounts of at least one case of Red paratroopers without parachutes exist. Among other results I have come up with the following:


    1. A woman by the name of Svetlana Nizovsteva recounted the following story reportedly told her by her grandfather, Petr Federovich Nizovtsev.

    "He was a member of a Siberian division which marched past Stalin (during November 7 celebrations) on the Red Square and from there directly into the battle near Moscow.

    Battalion by battalion marched the Siberians, in order to stop the attack of the Germans. To the northwest of Khimki (a Moscow suburb) already there were moving menacing German tanks. The commander of the Siberian battalion stopped. Guys, it is necessary, he told his troops, to stop the tanks. Right over there is an airfield, who wants to ‘fly`? And the entire battalion made a single step forward. The commander was pleased, and led them to the airplanes.

    But then there was an unexpected unpleasantness. There were no parachutes. The commanders looked around. No one wanted to send the Siberians to a certain death - to jump without parachutes onto tanks, and to assault them.

    Then the commander said ‘Behind us is Moscow, and ahead of us, are panzers. We have to stop them. But without parachutes. Winter can help us. Snow. It might be possible to cushion the fall. There is such a chance. We can`t give such an order, but are there volunteers?"

    Again the entire battalion took a set forward. The Fritzes ("Gansi" in the Russian text) were shocked in their tanks, when from the snowy sky white ghosts fell on them without parachutes, and immediately opened fire. Practically all the Siberians remained alive in the engagement. Twelve per cent died. Not a single German panzer advanced."

    2. Military author Oleg Svatalov in a book on the defense of Moscow, chapter "Mozhaisk airborne assault"

    The short version of the lead-up to the incident is that there is a regiment of Siberian infantry drawn up near Moscow, and Georgy Zhukov himself asks for volunteers for a jump without parachutes, because panzers are advancing on Moscow and they need to be stopped.

    As in the previous account an entire battalion takes one step forward, at which Zhukov says "Fine fellows! No other army in the world has soldiers like these!" The soldiers then load board "bombers" and fly off in the direction of the Mozhaisk. Svatalov`s text on the actual jump is as follows:


    "The German column moved efficiently and deliberately along the snowy road. Suddenly ahead of them appeared low-flying Russian airplanes, so low they appeared to be about to land. At an altitude of three or four meters like hail fell humans. Their landings in the snow made white clouds like earth after the explosion of artillery rounds. The men were wearing white camouflage uniforms, and as soon as they landed the white explosions turned into flaming sources of anti-tank grenades and bursts of automatic weapons fire, sowing panic and death in the German column. The ghosts in white coats charged the tanks with grenade bundles and firing anti-tank rifles. The assault was so violent and unexpected, that the Germans for a long time didn`t know what to do. The Russians, fearless in their assault, brought death to the Germans. Anti-tank rifles hammered, grenades detonated and panzer after panzer exploded."

    3. The Soviet defector Viktor Suvorov in his anti-Stalin book "Icebreaker" describes Stalin`s willingness to force people to jump from airplanes without parachutes as more proof Stalin was an inhuman monster. He makes no reference to the techniques use in combat.

    Speaking of which, I am willing to bet an entire hryvna David Glantz in his History of Soviet Airborne makes no reference to the "without parachutes" tale.

    I can add that the standard Soviet troop carrying planes in the early days of the war were the TB-1 and TB-3, which were normally bombers. Both had big wing area and relatively low max speeds (178 and 197 kph respectively) so I suppose a stall speed under 100 kph would have been possible, but less than that no way: we`re talking about a two and four-engine bomber, respectively.

    At least in near-Moscow case snow was not 2 meters deep: that depth is only possible in the far north, and then rarely. One meter on ground in November outside Moscow is not just abnormal, but just about unheard of. I imagine since the winter was so bad a meter snow cover was possible, but two or more is not credible. Moscow is not Antarctica, it`s not even Siberia. People do live there year-round, the place has a pretty hot summer, seasons, etc. l.

    Which is not to say the snow near Pechenga/Pentsamo wouldn`t be deeper. That said, and I`m getting off the subject, the Gulf Stream tends to keep things relatively warm and to moderate weather: Murmansk for practical purposes is an ice-free port. So I am a bit suspicious of reports of snow drifts two and three meters deep in that vicinity.

    Snow cannot reach density beyond 0.10. The crystals won`t compress any further (but turn into glacier instead, or melt). Snow is normally around 0.01-02, even in thaw. It is at it`s hardest in severe dry cold, when hardened surface layers are formed. That`s how they build igloos. Such surfaces will not affect a person falling into snow very much in terms of impact (brittle), but it can cut him up severely with sharp ends. Other than that a falling human body can always be softly collected by snow covered ground. Theoretically.

    The actual problem with the theory is depth. It needs to be pretty darn deep to softly collect a guy falling from the sky. Simple application of Newton`s law I believe. Mass multiplied by speed squared, divided by 2, to have the impact of the guy. Given the impact absorption and rate of breaking the fall of a ground with the mass of snow and - say – 0.05 density, we`re at a minimum three meter snow cover right?

    1. Snow may seem really fluffy when you see it on TV or in the movies, but that doesn`t mean it will feel soft when you hit it at >100 miles per hour. By analogy, water feels extremely soft (more so than snow!) when you put your hand in it at <1 mile per hour, but if you were slammed into it at >100 miles per hour then you would be killed.

    2. Snow cover is less than what a lot of people have assumed. Underneath the snow is very hard and pointy stuff, like rocks.

    Bottom line is that propelling a fragile human body into snow at >100 miles per hour is going to cause severe injury or death in the vast majority. Likewise for anyone in a crude protective device, notwithstanding what some may have concluded by watching "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" too many times.

    Anyway. Never been in a place with a 3m snow cover.

    25g is a good figure for human resilience to acceleration. Up to this acceleration the chance of injury is low. Survival is likely up to 60 g. This is assuming a reasonable level of support.

    A body travelling at 50mph (22.2m/s), decelerated at 25g will come to rest in the space of 1m. It will require a decellerative force of 19620N distributed over the body surface. (2 metric tons)

    Of course, 25G as a figure is based on a decent level of support to the body and the acceleration pushing from behind or below into the trunk. Accelerations pushing sideways or from the front have lower acceptable G limits. (10 to 15 G) The distance required to slow them to a halt at a given acceleration is a linear relationship, so for 10G it would need 2.5m.

    Well, for snow of infinite depth (all snow pushed downward via impact giving linearly increasing density as the fall progresses) with initial density of 1g/cm^3, and a 200lb man with cross-sectional area of .38 m^2, hitting the snow at 60mph I get you`d have to have 13.8m of snow. [L=ln(v)/(2*alpha), alpha=cross-sectional area man*density snow/mass of man]

    So I`d conclude compressibility and depth of snow, as well as the process of melting and refreezing into ice, is an important factor, as would be the ground. Otherwise, you have one big mother of a hole to dig yourself out of...in short, what`s most likely to happen is you`ll cut through the soft snow rather quickly, it won`t slow you much, then you`ll hit something hard at a slightly reduced speed, which will stop you quickly. That`s where the injury will occur.

    I can also say I have some experience with Soviet propaganda, and the story about Siberians jumping w/o parachutes to stop tanks outside Moscow has all the earmarks. Especially suspicious are the images "one step forward", "white ghost", and "German panzer advance turned back". You can take or leave my opinion, of course.

    My guess is the whole thing seems invented. But I wasn`t there, and I have to admit that Soviet accounts of the incident do in fact exist.


    Personally I am about as ready to believe the Soviets dumped infantry out of airplanes even once, as I am willing to believe accounts that a Siberian infantry battalion so landed put to rout a German armored attack outside Moscow in November 1941.

    Maybe somewhere, sometime, once. WW2 was a very big thing. But the idea the Soviets actually dropped infantry without parachutes as a matter of practice, never mind in combat, to me is just silly.

    and in related news...

    "The greatest altitude from which anyone has bailed out without a parachute and survived is 6,700m. This occurred in January 1942, when Lt (now Lt-Col) I.M Chisov (USSR) fell from an Ilyushin 4 which had been severely damaged. He struck the ground a glancing blow on the edge of a snow-covered ravine and slid to the bottom. He suffered a fractured pelvis and severe spinal damage"

    [Guinness Book of Records, 1978]

    Stunt falls are classified as "low falls" from up to 40ft, and "high falls" from above that. High falls over 100ft have been done, and I believe the record is over 200ft. These falls would be onto airbags, box catchers or water; I expect that a deep snow-drift (and there is no particular need to limit the depth to 2m, I`m sure Finland in winter could furnish much deeper) would provide equivalent cushioning. Unlike the stuntman, who has to be in mufti for filming purposes, the non-para the para could wear such protective gear as he liked.

    I don`t know what aircraft were used for these alleged drops, but a Po-2 has a stalling speed of about 40 mph, and I see no reason why it could not get down to tens of feet for a drop.

    40mph and (say) 40 feet into deep snow strikes me as a very bad insurance risk, but nothing like certain death or even injury â?? at least until you climb back out of the hole you have drilled in the drift to find a toothpick-wielding Finn waiting for you.

    While looking for something else entirely, I`ve just found another reference to this alleged practice, in S. L. A. Marshall`s "The Soldier`s Load" (Infantry Journal, 1950; Marine Corps Association, 1980). This says that during the winter of 1941-42, the "reds" dropped sabotage crews behind German lines thus: "They were flown over in old double-wing planes. While the planes glided ten feet or so above the snow the troops were pushed from them without anything to cushion the shock. The greater number were cracked-up and subsequently died of freezing. The survivors carried out the order."

    Marshall is famously slapdash with his sources, but on this occasion he identifies his source clearly. It is none other than Joachim Peiper. I suspect from reading James Lucas` account of Peiper`s activities on the Russian Front that he was not above adding more than a little colour to his accounts.

    True enough, I wouldn`t call Peiper (or his ghost writer) the world`s most authoritative source on Soviet airborne ops.

    Soviet EXPERIMENTS in dropping without parachutes involved the following: sledges or other protective enclosures designed to various capacities; very low speed - at aircraft approach speeds ~100 kts or less; very low altitudes ~ 10 feet or less, i.e., landing gear just above touchdown.

    The physics involved were simple. Reduce the drop height and you can do without a parachute. The goal would be to reduce unit dispersion on landing.

    The problems were the requirement for very specific landing zone criteria (long enough approaches and flat enough terrain to simulate a landing). Plus, the aircraft are MUCH more vulnerable in that situation.

    The Soviet operational thought and equipment experimentation were VERY advanced for the time (late 1930`s). They were not stupid or wasteful. No one was thinking of dropping soldiers from altitude without parachutes.

    The U.S. has continued that early Soviet technique, and termed it "LAPES": Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System. The most common footage shows C-130`s about 5#8242; or less over a runway, at 130 knots, cargo doors open, making a run. The large cargo gets extracted by its chute and skids along the smooth ground, RIGHT where it`s needed. Experiments were done with sledges for people, but abandoned due to safety concerns.

  8. #98
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    Si risulta anche a me dei lanci a bassa quota nella neve, ma comunque era veramente bassa quota in modo da ridurre i rischi al minimo

    Mi sa che mi sono espresso male, gli 8 milioni sono le persone con il brevetto di paracadutista, e quindi la base di reclutamento già* con una base di addestramento

  9. #99
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    Oh, interessante argomento che è venuto fuori, bene, si spera che continuerà* su quest'onda;
    Ma scusa una cosa Ivan, tu che sei più esperto, sò che le tecniche di lancio dei Fallschirmjager sovietici non era molto evoluta, in se consisteva nel portare due squadre di parà* agganciati ai lati della fusoliera in bili co sulle ali e poi il "lancio" consisteva nel farsi scivolare giù per l'ala nel vuoto, puoi confermarmi questo Ivan???

    Saluti
    Die nadel
    Komm mein Schatz, denn wir fahren nach Croce D’Aune

    Canale youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/Feldgragruppe?feature=mhee

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  10. #100
    Utente registrato
    Data Registrazione
    May 2007
    Messaggi
    1,230
    E' un'altro mito che la pagina che ho copiato qui tende a sfatare. "Ho visto resoconti che riferivano come i sovietici avessero sperimentato metodi di lancio con i paracadutisi aggrappati alle ali come sistema per lanciare più truppe sulla zona di lancio a singola uscita dell'aereo, ma cestinarono l'idea perchè anche se "tecnicamente" era fattibile, i soldati quando atterravano erano da buttare. Per qualcosa che doveva aver a che fare con l'essersene stati a sedere in una corrente d'aria per 30-90 minuti: nemmeno i russi potevano essere tanto duri da farcela!

    "I have seen reports saying the Soviets experimented with troops handing onto the wings as a way of getting more troops on the DZ per sortie, but they bagged the idea because, although it technically it actually worked, the soldiers were worth nothing when they landed. Something about sitting in a slipstream for 30 - 90 minutes - even Russians couldn`t tough that out".

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